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| Registered: September 29, 2008 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,510 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
No... it won't necessarily be the same across the board. For films withing it's own locality we use whatever is in the credits for the Original Title (if different then the case).
This can be different then what the actual "original title" is.
Rules Quote:
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Original Title
The Original Title field serves two general purposes, but in both cases allows for the tracking of the original feature title. For profiles which have an alternate title displayed on the cover, use the title from the film's credits. For titles released outside their country of origin, use the original release title.
In cases where the title is the original title, leave the Original Title field blank.
Notice the parts I put in bold... especially the first part.
The Credits says Marvel's The Avengers (no quotes... but never seen quotes around the title in the credits before myself anyway).... then that would be the original title in it's country of Origin... no matter if it is the actual original title or not.
I see this especially with cheap releases of low budget horror titles... where there could be multiple alternate titles... and the case uses 1 alternate title... and the credits use another alternate title. In these cases the true Original Title don't get in the database as the rules are written.
So in the end... the Original Title is not necessarily going to always be the same on all releases.
Quoting huskersports:
Quote:
That's what my "mission" is, is to avoid that nonsense.
That "mission"... while completely understandable... may or may not be correct per the rules... depending on the release and what is actually in the credits. (Speaking generally... not necessarily on this title... though there is no way to know for sure unless you see every release for the title.) That's what I mean: It should be one or the other. I tried Marvel's the Avengers (which is on the disc) and that got voted down by 1 locality/UPC. So, for the sake of linking, I tried the other title, The Avengers, and now that one is getting voted down by 1 locality/UPC! This movie has 1 country of origin, the USA, and either Marvel's the Avengers or The Avengers is going to be the original title (if needed) so that cast/crew credits for this film show up as 1 title in the CLT, not 3 or 4 titles. | | | My one wish for the DVD Profiler online database: Ban or remove the disc-level profiles of TV season sets. It completely screws up/inflates the CLT.
FACT: Imdb is WRONG 70% of the time! Misspelled cast, incomplete cast, wrong cast/crew roles. So for those who want DVD Profiler to be "as perfect as Imdb", good luck with that.
Stop adding UNIT crew! They're invalid credits. Stop it! |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,309 |
| | Posted: | | | | But that is not necessarily possible. It is next to impossible to say.. but if there is a copy here in the US with Marvel's The Avengers in the credits (this we know is true).... but yet another copy that the credits just say The Avengers... then correctly per the rules you would have some under the original title of Marvel's The Avengers and some under the original title of The Avengers.
What you are suggesting is possibly something that can't be done with the rules as they are written now. And even if they can... that may not stay that way with a future pressing of the release.
And it is definitely not true for a good handful of films I have where they use 1 alternate title on the cover and another alternate title in the credits... with the original title not there anywhere.
The one thing I don't understand here is why you are taking up such a "mission" as it has been called on this title... when there is many... MANY titles in the database that the same can be said for. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: June 15, 2012 |  Posts: 428 |
| | Posted: | | | | Looking at my copy, the cover lists Marvel's The Avengers with Marvel's in a much smaller font.
The opening of the movie eventually include Marvel's The Avengers with Marvel's being in a very small font, The being a bit larger and Avengers being huge in comparison.
During the end credits you do see Marvel's The Avengers mixed in with the credits (however not in a formost position) and while all the same size font, looks merely placed to match the other credits.
Considering also that all media studio descriptions of this movie describe it as Marvel's The Avengers all points to the "Marvel's" being possessive and not really a part of the film title.
There might be a case for the original title to be argued as Marvel's The Avengers but everything I see points to the title as The Avengers. | | | | Last edited: by Parsec |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,309 |
| | Posted: | | | | When it comes to the title of the release what matters is what is in the credit block on the back of the case. You only use the size of the font to determine it if there is no quotes in the credit box... Rules Quote: Quote:
Include possessives if the front cover includes them, and if they are verifiably part of the title. If quotes surround the title in the credit block (generally on the back cover), check whether the possessive is within the quotes. In the absence of quotes to verify, check the font size used for the title on the front cover. Generally, possessives which use a significantly smaller font are not part of the title. See what I put in bold. So if the credit block on the back of the case happens to say "Marvel's The Avengers" (all in quotes) the font size wouldn't matter. I mention this because the one thing you did not mention in your post is what was shown in the credit block on the back cover. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: June 15, 2012 | | Posts: 428 |
| | Posted: | | | | @Addicted2DVD
No problem, I should have mentioned - there is no credit block on the back cover.
My copy is a blu-ray/dvd combo. |
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| Registered: September 29, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,510 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
The one thing I don't understand here is why you are taking up such a "mission" as it has been called on this title... when there is many... MANY titles in the database that the same can be said for. I do original title batches from names I've looked up from my local every now and then (example: I found that I had a Christopher M. Gallaher and a Chris Gallaher), but when I saw the credits for The Avengers, I knew this one was going to be trouble. Consulting the rules, I thought I was doing it the right way, but....I guess not. | | | My one wish for the DVD Profiler online database: Ban or remove the disc-level profiles of TV season sets. It completely screws up/inflates the CLT.
FACT: Imdb is WRONG 70% of the time! Misspelled cast, incomplete cast, wrong cast/crew roles. So for those who want DVD Profiler to be "as perfect as Imdb", good luck with that.
Stop adding UNIT crew! They're invalid credits. Stop it! | | | | Last edited: by huskersports |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,309 |
| | Posted: | | | | Well... on some of the releases you may have very well been right. But not necessarily on all the releases. With the way the rules are for the original title, there is no way to guarantee that all releases for any certain movie will always have the same original title. Even though this makes using the CLT a bit more difficult.
It is unfortunate... but it is the way it is. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 5,734 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
With the way the rules are for the original title, there is no way to guarantee that all releases for any certain movie will always have the same original title. [...]
It is unfortunate. It is ridiculous. But what do you expect? Watching and profiling movies is an activity for fools. If you still deal with contributions you have to accept that decisions are always made on a per profile basis. So a week after any of these funny forum threads you can contribute the biggest nonsense again - with enough newbie supporters the reviewer will approve the petition of the owners of the specific profile. That's democracy. | | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
With the way the rules are for the original title, there is no way to guarantee that all releases for any certain movie will always have the same original title. Even though this makes using the CLT a bit more difficult. Then the rules need to be fixed. It really is that simple. |
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| Registered: October 6, 2008 | | Posts: 1,932 |
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| Registered: May 2, 2009 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 490 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
With the way the rules are for the original title, there is no way to guarantee that all releases for any certain movie will always have the same original title. Even though this makes using the CLT a bit more difficult.
Then the rules need to be fixed. It really is that simple. I agree! It is totally irrational and in fact unacceptable that one movie can have " several" original titles. One movie—one title...! I'm all for fixing such crazy rules and inconsistencies that exists now at Invelos and with the database. For a database to have full integrity, it has to be consistent and logical. Anyway , this particular issue should have a quick and easy solution. | | | | Last edited: by MikaLove |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,309 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
With the way the rules are for the original title, there is no way to guarantee that all releases for any certain movie will always have the same original title. Even though this makes using the CLT a bit more difficult.
Then the rules need to be fixed. It really is that simple. I mentioned this every time I see a thread about original titles with the CLT. Every since the original title was changed to use what is in the credits when it is a title from that locality. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,309 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting MikaLove: Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
With the way the rules are for the original title, there is no way to guarantee that all releases for any certain movie will always have the same original title. Even though this makes using the CLT a bit more difficult.
Then the rules need to be fixed. It really is that simple.
I agree!
It is totally irrational and in fact unacceptable that one movie can have "several" original titles.
One movie—one title...!
I'm all for fixing such crazy rules and inconsistencies that exists now at Invelos and with the database.
For a database to have full integrity, it has to be consistent and logical.
Anyway , this particular issue should have a quick and easy solution. When it comes to getting a rule changed there is no quick and easy solution. There is only 1 way to get a rule changed here at Invelos... 1. Bring it to the Rules Committee Forum 2. Discuss how it must change and get a consensus. 3. Discuss the wording of the rules... get a consensus on the wording 4. Send a Message to Ken Cole about the Rule Change.... Then he can either agree with it or disagree with it.5. We wait for Ken's decision and for him to change the rules till then... all we can do is follow the rules as they are written. And it is never as easy as.... There is a need to change a rule... write new rule... done. Believe me... I been part of the group that writes the rules since before Ken made the Rules Committee forum section. It is very rare that it is an easy thing. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: May 2, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 490 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
Quoting MikaLove:
Quote:
It is totally irrational and in fact unacceptable that one movie can have "several" original titles.
One movie—one title...!
I'm all for fixing such crazy rules and inconsistencies that exists now at Invelos and with the database.
For a database to have full integrity, it has to be consistent and logical.
Anyway , this particular issue should have a quick and easy solution.
When it comes to getting a rule changed there is no quick and easy solution. There is only 1 way to get a rule changed here at Invelos...
1. Bring it to the Rules Committee Forum
2. Discuss how it must change and get a consensus.
3. Discuss the wording of the rules... get a consensus on the wording
4. Send a Message to Ken Cole about the Rule Change.... Then he can either agree with it or disagree with it.
5. We wait for Ken's decision and for him to change the rules
till then... all we can do is follow the rules as they are written.
And it is never as easy as.... There is a need to change a rule... write new rule... done.
Believe me... I been part of the group that writes the rules since before Ken made the Rules Committee forum section. It is very rare that it is an easy thing. Not everyone can access that rules committee forum and I think that's unfair. It's like there's this elite group that has some kind of clutch over all data, all the rules and efficiently all the users. It doesn't smell like democracy to me. In this case, I can't care how difficult it would be to change a rule. Because it's so totally obviously logical that one movie can only have one title. If it doesn't, it will have a domino effect on the database, causing numerous problems and essentially making the database worthless. If I'm looking for one title, I want to find only that title and all editions/profiles for it. Nothing more, nothing less. Also think about common name issues, if we have one person, but with two variations (or more), spread over several titles that are actually only just one title. I can say it a thousand times; one movie—one title. Or rather "one profile—one original title". If there's an argument about the original title, maybe we'll have to go to official sources. I don't know of any examples since I haven't encountered this problem before. But when a movie is released, it is only intended to have one original title to make that movie unique, and not cause problems with rights... Geez. Why is this even a debate? One may wonder. Some just seem to like to debate for the sake of it. When does it become a waste of time, for such people? Obviously not even when it becomes a waste of time for all other users as well. People who sit on top of those rules and regulations (in society also laws), seem to have forgotten about common sense, thinking outside the box and wanting things to be smooth and logical for everyone. To me, rules and all that (crap) is always just guidelines. If it's nothing like "you mustn't kill someone in cold blood".  Anyway, I'm rambling a bit here in the end. | | | | Last edited: by MikaLove |
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| Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting MikaLove: Quote:
Not everyone can access that rules committee forum and I think that's unfair. Everyone can access the rules commitee forum - all you need to do is request access. | | | | Last edited: by Kathy |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,309 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't know what to tell you on that... I didn't create the Rules Committee Forum... Invelos did. As for having access... in my experience all you need to do is request entrance. I can't say why Invelos decided to do it that way... but apparently it is the way they want it done. As for them being rules or guidelines... they are definitely rules that must be followed for the online. We used to have guidelines before the rules that got us nowhere fast. That is when they were changed to rules. Rules Quote from the Introduction Section: Quote:
If you wish to save different information in your local profiles, you are free to do so in your local database, but do not contribute your information. The main database is standardized so that all profiles follow these rules. DVD Profiler allows you to lock your data so that it is not overwritten by updates from the main database. So for the online... all contributions must follow these rules. If you (general) don't follow them expect to see no votes. I myself am a very rules oriented person... I personally vote no to anything that goes against any of the rules (if I agree with the rule or not). | | | | Pete |
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