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What I would want...
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAlien Redrum
Proudly blocked by liars.
Registered: August 23, 2008
Reputation: High Rating
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
It doesn't matter, you are still not following the RULES, Skip. The RULES are VERY CLEAR:

Quote:
The authoritative source for information submitted should be the DVD itself.


It does not say the MOVIE in the THEATER. It says the DVD.

You are free to keep it LOCAL, but you shouldn't submit because it is BAD DATA.

I know what you are trying to do but you are making a bad argument.  If we follow your logic, we can't have SRP or release date or genre as none of those come from the DVD.  In fact, we can't have any pre-release profiles at all. 


I absolutely agree with you Unicus, and that's the point.

Every thread that discusses any sort of naming convention, Skip is the one screaming loudest and belittling the most how all the data has to come from the DVD because of the rules this and the rules that. But, technically, he himself is not following the rules when he submits data from his "notebook". That is not what the rules state. Yet the moment someone wants to have any sort of discussion about how names are handled, he comes Skip swopping down to save the day with his capitalizations and rule book exclaiming any data outside of the DVD is bad data.

Putting names of people in the database on a pre-release is common sense (whether Skip will agree to it or not), and I support it. Just like release date and genre. But you can't scream at people for wanting to discuss a rule change, or an alternative solution to an obvious problem, but not follow the rules yourself (again, technically).

Forget_the_Rest, I completely agree with you, as well. Yet even with the rest of the rules quoted, I don't see "memory" listed there.

I dare someone to submit something that Skip owns and use a "notebook" as a source. Yeah. That would fly. 
Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com

"I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Thanks for the explanation.
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Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
It doesn't matter, you are still not following the RULES, Skip. The RULES are VERY CLEAR:

Quote:
The authoritative source for information submitted should be the DVD itself.


It does not say the MOVIE in the THEATER. It says the DVD.

You are free to keep it LOCAL, but you shouldn't submit because it is BAD DATA.

I know what you are trying to do but you are making a bad argument.  If we follow your logic, we can't have SRP or release date or genre as none of those come from the DVD.  In fact, we can't have any pre-release profiles at all. 


I do too, Unicus, except that straw man arguments never stand up under scrutiny. They are usually designed for one purpose.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting Danae Cassandra:
Quote:
Skip, let me see if I understand your position.  I'll set up a hypothetical situation:  A casting director spots you and decides you're perfect for the extra he needs.  You play the part of an extra in the film, we'll say "guy at newsstand."  After it is finished filming, the film is rushed off to have the credits done by a guy typing at a computer.  He mistypes and instead of the credit reading  "Guy at Newsstand = Skip" it reads "Guy at Newsstand = Skop"  Nobody spots the mistake and it gets through to the finished product.  Oops.

If this hypothetical movie then came out on DVD you would say that the credit should read:
"Guy at Newsstand = Skop" rather than "Guy at Newsstand = Skip [Skop]"

I may be misunderstanding your position here, however. 

What I believe is wanted in the case of Francois is to credit, say François Truffaut (a well-known French director) as François Truffaut [Francois Truffaut].  That's not making anything up.  It is simply saying that if Truffaut is credited with his first name spelled wrong, it should be entered in the [credited as] field rather than the main field.


Under your hypothetical, Skop is the correct credit.Now if it could be determined that Skip was involved, we could always go with Credited As Skip (Skop). LOL, I've been called a lot of things before but not Skop,          

Just follow the hard data and adjust from that baseline.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAlien Redrum
Proudly blocked by liars.
Registered: August 23, 2008
Reputation: High Rating
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
It doesn't matter, you are still not following the RULES, Skip. The RULES are VERY CLEAR:

Quote:
The authoritative source for information submitted should be the DVD itself.


It does not say the MOVIE in the THEATER. It says the DVD.

You are free to keep it LOCAL, but you shouldn't submit because it is BAD DATA.

I know what you are trying to do but you are making a bad argument.  If we follow your logic, we can't have SRP or release date or genre as none of those come from the DVD.  In fact, we can't have any pre-release profiles at all. 


I do too, Unicus, except that straw man arguments never stand up under scrutiny. They are usually designed for one purpose.

Skip


No straw man argument. The explanation is two posts above your reply. If you are going to be hypocritical, expect to be called on it.
Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com

"I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsugarjoe
Registered: March 15, 2007
Germany Posts: 374
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:

The repetitive threads are another matter entirely...
Skip


Talking about repetitive threads it seems to me that you do a lot of repetition in your 13,000 posts as well. 
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:

The repetitive threads are another matter entirely...
Skip


Talking about repetitive threads it seems to me that you do a lot of repetition in your 13,000 posts as well. 

I won't argue that, joe. The price of repetitive threads.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTaro
Registered: February 23, 2009
Reputation: High Rating
Belgium Posts: 1,580
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Taro:

It iis user imaginatiion when that users data disagrees with the Credited data. The credited data is factual data, anything else is imagination, supposition or hallucination. You are not understanding that our data source is the film credits and ONLY the film credits. And that we list that data as credited, not as imagined.

I think that you need to follow the Rules, You mention correct data as defined by whom you or surfeur, no thanks. We have defined CORRECT data and it is based on FACT not FICTION, if you follow the Rules you and al users will discover that the CLT would actually function as it should. Since the CLT is to be the most commonly credited name and that credited name comes from the factual data instead of some users addled brain.

Furthermore moving backwards to uer-interpreted data doesnot make the database better. Ther are plebtyn of errors in IMDb and it functions as you want it to, you are free to interpret the data just as much as you want, as I have said before that might be better for some users who believe in user-hallucinated data, after all you can track 10,000 titles for FREE over there. I want a databse that is accurate to the REAL data and a linking system that actually works correctly. Instead of trying to create another version of IMDb or reinventing their wheel, just go use it.

Skip

For the record, never did I mention IMDB or any other database, online or not, as a source. What I metion are offically documented spelling rules, as agreed upon by the instances that have the final say in such matters.

Take a few steps back, Skip and look at the big picture. Not DVD Profiler related but the real life (you know, that part of life not spent behind a computer). Are you seriously going to tell me that you'll defend the name 'Francois' in front of a room of professors in French linguistics, and on top of that even tell them they are 'imagining' things? Really? And your argument vis-a-vis these scholars would be that a random guy in the basement of Universal Studios just happened to have typed it that way? That's your argument?

So:
- The grammar book (published) I studied for French literature: I must have imagined it
- Seeing the actor's name written like that on his official website: also my imagination
- My dictionary also doesn't have a 'Francois': pure imagination on my part of course
but:
- some random dude in a basement types it like 'Francois': he must be correct or else the universe will implode.

Am I the only one here who thinks this kind of reasoning is, strange, to say the least? 

Oh and I must also say I find it very rich that you of all people use 'your memory' from seeing a movie in theaters as a valid source, whereas this is clearly not following the rules to the letter. You of all people, who slaps the rules against anyone even daring to stray even a little bit from the exact letter of the rules are using your own memory as a valid source? 


To sum it up, according to Skip:
- correct source that shan't be touched lest God strikes us down: credits typed by random clerks and his own memory
- Sources that we should never mention again: official linguistic instances, official personal websites of the actors themselves and our collective imagination (not Skip's, because in his case, it's his memory, not his imagination)


So, what's the next rabbit you'll pull out of your hat to dismiss our opinions and grievances?

Quote:
I absolutely agree with you Unicus, and that's the point.

Every thread that discusses any sort of naming convention, Skip is the one screaming loudest and belittling the most how all the data has to come from the DVD because of the rules this and the rules that. But, technically, he himself is not following the rules when he submits data from his "notebook". That is not what the rules state. Yet the moment someone wants to have any sort of discussion about how names are handled, he comes Skip swopping down to save the day with his capitalizations and rule book exclaiming any data outside of the DVD is bad data.

Putting names of people in the database on a pre-release is common sense (whether Skip will agree to it or not), and I support it. Just like release date and genre. But you can't scream at people for wanting to discuss a rule change, or an alternative solution to an obvious problem, but not follow the rules yourself (again, technically).

Forget_the_Rest, I completely agree with you, as well. Yet even with the rest of the rules quoted, I don't see "memory" listed there.

I dare someone to submit something that Skip owns and use a "notebook" as a source. Yeah. That would fly. 

Exactly my thoughts. It seems to me that the sacro-saint rules should be followed to the letter and can't be changed or even be put into question, yet when Skip's concerned, anything can fly, even his notebook.

Hypocritical would be an understatement.
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 Last edited: by Taro
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Taro:

What you say has nothing to do with film credits and the data that they repersent, but it does have a lot to do with some invention of your making. And my answer is NO, NO a thousand times NO, There is one source for the data and that is the film credits, French linguiists are totally irrelevant, so are American linguists for that matter.

Just follow the data. Making the Online useable for your purposes, make sit completely useless for others. The Online is not a personal reference source, it has to service 500,000 users and that is not up for majority vote, the only way that provides the data that all users can themn manipulate locally for their own purpose is to use ACTUAL data from the film. Then if you want to use the french linguists to set up your link system...be my guest. But NOT for the baseline data.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantW0m6at
You're in for it now Tony
Registered: April 17, 2007
Australia Posts: 1,091
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In the defence of the "every few weeks" Asian name threads, the other day I went searching for Taro's thread on romanisation of Japanese names. I typed in "romanization" (U.S. spelling). How many results did I get, searching "Any Date", "Subject only"? Four.

One on Korean names, one on Hong Kong actors and two on Japanese names. Far from overwhelming. The other thing I found was each thread was derailed by people talking about parsing and people otherwise misunderstanding the situation.

Search for "Asian", and there are 8 results, 4 of which are about names, and one is Asian movie "problems" in general.

Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
For example. all right we know the Asian Name problem exists (Native name), does it do any good to bring up and dance around about it every few weeks. There is eve a sticky thread that was created expressly for that purpose, but still it gets a new thread opened every few weeks and has for 3 years. I submit that it does no good to bring it up every few weeks, it does heighten tension in the forums.

Yes, the name order discussion has gotten nowhere, and it does get tiring. Anyone who has followed these discussions knows the viewpoint of each of the major participants. However, and this is a general observation, not restricted to any given person but is perhaps indicative of human nature, not every thread on "Asian names" is about name order. We have two distinct issues:

Romanisation is about conversion from one character set to another. It is completely unavoidable as the software does not support the Unicode characters. There are attempts to standardise the romanisation system. WYSIWYT can't be strictly adhered to here, but a standardised romanisation system would mean that the way "What You See" is typed in a consistent manner. Using the ever-popular Nakamura:

???? (as it would appear onscreen... if you see question marks, you don't have support installed)
Romanised to / entered as one of:
Nakamura Shido
Nakamura Shidou
Nakamura Shidô

Each of the three is WYSIWYT.

The second issue continually confounds the former, and seems to overrun threads. Parsing.
Bring that in and you have:
Nakamura Shido
Nakamura Shidou
Nakamura Shidô
Shido Nakamura
Shidou Nakamura
Shidô Nakamura

Hopefully I've demonstrated that there's not a single "Asian name issue". There are two issues for Japanese names. We then have additional parsing issues for Hong Kong and Korean actors (different issue in each case). Perhaps if we can deliberately discuss romanisation in the absence of name order / parsing bias, we can get somewhere with it. History has shown that the name order issue can not and will not be resolved by community discussion.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
Profiling since 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Sweden Posts: 4,685
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
For the record both Gunnar and surfeur have chaffed at the rules for years.

That's simply not true. We had some arguments back in the guideline days, but since the introduction of the rules I certainly haven't "chaffed" at them "for years".

What is true, though, is that I and some others have raised concerns over people shunning DVD Profiler because those people think that the rules are too convoluted ("It's just a hobby, after all") and the tone in many votes and forum posts is too aggressive.

I don't see you, Skip, offering any solution. You talk about 500 000 users, but you would keep the rules at a level where most of these people probably won't feel comfortable to contribute. And yet you think that I am the problem for wanting to discuss the issue...?

/Gunnar
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 Last edited: by GSyren
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
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Quoting GSyren:
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And yet you think that I am the problem for wanting to discuss the issue...?


Not you only...  ... everyone who doesn't give his daily offering to the most perfect thing in the World : Contribution Rules, as they were thought by the most intelligent man in the world, the only one who has understood everything...
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTaro
Registered: February 23, 2009
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I'm sorry for derailing the original topic but I find it necessary to answer the same thing in this thread as the PM I've sent to Skip. Here goes:

I am indeed not a programmer so I can't tell what is possible and what not, from a technical perspective. I look at the data not from an analysts or programmer's perspective, but from a linguist's perspective.

Actually, I think we agree on a lot of aspects but keep tripping over the additional features. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we seem to agree on:
- data from the disc's credits are the template to input the data in Profiler
- if there are errors in the names, we can use the 'credited as' feature to correct them.
So far, I think we're on the same page.

However, I think we differ on these points:
- I feel both should be online (the credited as & the real name)
- users should locally be able to choose which one of the two is displayed in their Profiler

I don't want to erase the credited as names (neither locally or online), I just would like to have the possibility to display only the real names, in my local database as well as be able to get that info from the Invelos servers. I think (although I'm not a programmer, so please excuse me if I misunderstand) a simple switch in the options (a radio button perhaps) would be sufficient to do this. I believe such a solution would go a long way in answering the grievances of many users.

To take the example of Francois/François, he would still be credited both locally and online with the name 'Francois' under 'credited as', but would be credited both locally and online as 'François'. Each user would then be able to chose which field to display in his or her local Profiler: Francois (credited as) or François (real name).

I understand that you want to prevent random changes to the database and I certainly adhere to that same vision. However, I hope you can understand that when I see spelling errors or violations of official naming conventions, it makes me cringe as much as it makes you cringe to see random input in the database.

With the current version of the program and set of rules, users like yourself are perfectly catered to. Users like myself however are left in the cold for the time being. I realize it takes time to implement new rules and features, but in order to find the best possible solution for all parties involved, I find it necessary to bring up the current problems and all together try to formulate suggestions on how to solve it.

Also, I would like to urge you to stop using the word 'imaginary'. It is very offensive to both native speakers and linguists like myself, when you claim that our naming conventions or spelling rules, which are after all officially recognized rules, are fictions of our imagination.

If you want to point out that it's not credited as such, you are entirely correct as many credits contain such errors. However, calling official spelling and naming rules part of our imagination is, to say the least, a slap in the face to all native speakers and linguists occupied in that field of expertise. Please understand there is a difference between random changes made by a users because he prefers it as such and a change made by a user based on offical rules issued by the government and universities. The latter are clearly verifiable sources, not random imaginations. Anyone can very these sources just as easily as credits can be verified.


And now I'll also add this:
I find it odd you say I want to render the database useless to you. I never said that the credits (what you call the 'hard data') should be erased or overwritten. The same data you have at your disposition now would still be there for you to download and submit. All I'm asking is that a solution be found for people like myself who want to display the names in accordance with official spelling rules and in a uniformed way.

The way I see it, is that I'm trying to meet you halfway, but you keep standing on the high ground where you are, unwilling to even take one step towards my direction. If anything, it is users like YOU who make the database useless to users like me for the time being, not the other way around.


W0m6at :  well put regarding the Asian names issues. I cannot agree more and the rules currently don't offer any solution to these matters.
I am currently working on a draft to summarize the various issues connected to Japanese names and titles, as well as some possible solutions, which will be published in the rules committee forum. This will of course in no way be a 'take it or leave it' set of rules, but a starting point from where we can discuss the issues and hopefully come to a consensus which can be submitted to Invelos for approval.
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 Last edited: by Taro
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKulju
Registered: March 14, 2007
Finland Posts: 2,337
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Between my wife and I, we have  built some of the largest, most secure and most accurate databases in the United States, this was not achieved by allowing the people who do the data entry to just put whatever they want into a given field.


Since you always bring this up, can I ask if you could share with us what these databases are and what you mean by term "built"? Have you designed and coded the database structure, queries etc., or have you entered data to db designed and coded by someone else, like we do as DVDP users?

Don't get me wrong but your written text doesn't actually give an impression about person who know a lot about database design.

I have really difficult time to believe that "some of the largest, most secure and most accurate databases in the United States" was built by two persons. Where can I find the list of the most secure, largest and accurate dbs in the US?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantDr. Killpatient
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Registered: May 19, 2007
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I have a text document on my desktop with names and phone numbers and I consider it to be 100% accurate as far as names are concerned.

You could call it a Friends Profiler but to me, it's my Little Black Text File.

DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantI-Fling-Poo
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Registered: December 22, 2008
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Quoting Kulju:
Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Between my wife and I, we have  built some of the largest, most secure and most accurate databases in the United States, this was not achieved by allowing the people who do the data entry to just put whatever they want into a given field.


Since you always bring this up, can I ask if you could share with us what these databases are and what you mean by term "built"? Have you designed and coded the database structure, queries etc., or have you entered data to db designed and coded by someone else, like we do as DVDP users?

Don't get me wrong but your written text doesn't actually give an impression about person who know a lot about database design.

I have really difficult time to believe that "some of the largest, most secure and most accurate databases in the United States" was built by two persons. Where can I find the list of the most secure, largest and accurate dbs in the US?


You know, I was going to post something similar, but decided against it as surely Skip would likely tell us that he cannot tell us.  After all, if they're the "most secure" databases in the USA, they must have been built/designed/populated for the NSA, CIA or some BlackOps gov't organization, right?  Or, he could just be blowing smoke.

Poo
 Last edited: by I-Fling-Poo
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