Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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Quoting northbloke:

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Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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But that is not the case northbroke... Invelos defined standard credits in the rules where all credited actors is in the end credits in one section. Since she is credited in the opening credits and not in the end credits they therefore can not be standard credits.

Not quite. Invelos define standard credits where all credited actors involved are listed. As Agnes Moorhead wasn't involved in that episode, all involved actors are credited at the end and so they can be classed as standard credits.

I apparently read that differently then you do... I do see her as involved... it does not clarify involved in the show/film... just involved... And I see her being involved by being in the credits and being part of the main cast... that makes her involved... her being in the main opening credits makes her involved in the series as a whole... in every single episode.

The whole section of the rules is talking about the credits... so when read I read it as a whole talking about the credits. so without clarification I read that as involved in the credits.

So someone who doesn't appear in the episode at all gets credited as an actor, yet a dancer or stunt person (who could be identified on screen at some point during the movie/show) doesn't?

Time to start entering all the crew credits we don't normally capture as crew into cast as long as they are listed during the opening credits since they are [i]involved[/] in the episode.

There is one thing that makes the rules vague, to me anyway.

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If a film has actors listed in the opening credits, which are not listed in the end credits, add these to the list in DVD Profiler before those taken from the end credits.

Now, there's a difference between a film and a TV episode. A film will rarely, if ever, have actors credited in the opening credits who are actually not in the film.

So, I'm not sure that I'd agree that this rule is pertinent to TV episodes.

Quoting Agrare:

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Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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That is how it has always been.

doesn't make it correct or mean that's how it should be.

also, I was being sarcastic about adding all crew to cast that appears in the opening credits. I didn't refer to the rules to see if it was covered, just trying to illustrate how that could possibly  open the door for more inaccurate data.

I happen to agree with Pantheon that the information is more useful if it shows what people were actually in the episode and including them in the cast when they weren't in the episode is inaccurate.

-Agrare

By this argument, we would, in order to be completely accurate in entering the cast, have to identify every single person who appeared in the episode, including uncredited.

The fact is that what we do is enter data "As Credited" per the Rules.

Accuracy has nothing to do with it! 

Hal:

Your brilliance is positively blinding.

Skip

Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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Quoting northbloke:

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So someone who doesn't appear in the episode at all gets credited as an actor, yet a dancer or stunt person (who could be identified on screen at some point during the movie/show) doesn't?

Time to start entering all the crew credits we don't normally capture as crew into cast as long as they are listed during the opening credits since they are involved in the episode.

The rules do not apply to the crew as the rules says...

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For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed together in a single section at the end of the film - defined here as the "end credits".

Crew is not actors.

Well, they could be. If Clint Eastwood is listed in the opening credits as director, that doesn't change that fact that he is also an actor who is involved with this movie, albeit not in an acting capacity. And as Agnes Moorehead is not involved as an actor in the episode in question, I'm not sure what the difference would be.

The common sense solution is surely not to list cast who appear in an opening credit block which remains constant across a series, if they're not present in that episode. Especially if an episode-specific full cast list appears in the end credits.

Quoting hal9g:

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Quoting Agrare:

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Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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That is how it has always been.

doesn't make it correct or mean that's how it should be.

also, I was being sarcastic about adding all crew to cast that appears in the opening credits. I didn't refer to the rules to see if it was covered, just trying to illustrate how that could possibly  open the door for more inaccurate data.

I happen to agree with Pantheon that the information is more useful if it shows what people were actually in the episode and including them in the cast when they weren't in the episode is inaccurate.

-Agrare

By this argument, we would, in order to be completely accurate in entering the cast, have to identify every single person who appeared in the episode, including uncredited.

The fact is that what we do is enter data "As Credited" per the Rules.

Accuracy has nothing to do with it! 

That's not what I was arguing, but technically, yes. If we want to be completely accurate as to who appears in the episode, we would need a complete list of all uncredited persons. This is probably next to impossible to accomplish. And the argument could be made that leaving out people you don't know is more accurate than guessing for these people (though you could probably also argue the reverse).

We enter data "As Credited" per the rules as you say but the rules also allow inclusion of uncredited. and uncredited by definition cannot be entered as credited.

I think the important issue here is that for a given show the opening is the same for each episode and is just reused. Generally if its changed its done between seasons, sometimes its done part way through a reason, but in any case its not re-shot for each episode. Credits on the other hand, because cast\crew change, you have guest stars in episodes appear to be re-done for each episode. It also appears that they are (at least in this case) accurate to remove cast members that may be regulars but don't appear in that particular episode. Since the opening is reused however those regulars may still be listed there. So maybe for TV series the opening should be ignored when dealing with cast.

But ultimately it comes down to personal preference. We've shown that the rules can be interpreted to allow for the inclusion of cast from the opening even when standard credits exist.

I think this part of the rules is probably the main problem

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If a film does not have standard credits, use the following rules:

    * If a film has actors listed in the opening credits, which are not listed in the end credits, add these to the list in DVD Profiler before those taken from the end credits.

that first bullet (the only one I included in the quote) seems to allow for use of the opening credits even when standard credits are present. but its listed under the rules to use when standard credits aren't present.

so it all comes down to what are standard credits

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For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed together in a single section at the end of the film - defined here as the "end credits". The section details both the actor’s Name and the Role that they played in the film. The credits may be listed "in order of appearance", "alphabetical order" or in an order of importance decided by the filmmakers. Some actors may be credited a second time in either credits at either the opening or close of the film.

For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited. 

that seems pretty clear. but now it seems that we have to define what constitutes involvement. So now we are using opening credits to say that a credited actor that was involved in the show (because they are mentioned in opening credits, which as stated above are not re-shot per episode) was not included in the end credits thus making the end credits not standard allowing for them to be added.
Does anyone else's head hurt from reading that last sentence? (mine does and I wrote it) Yay circular logic.

Some serious rewording of this rule is in order I thinkI suggest opening credits just need to be not allowed for cast at all unless there are no actors listed in the end credits.

-Agrare

Quoting wintermute115:

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Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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It may be more accurate... but it would be against the rules.

It would also be against the rules to provide a title for Tim Burton's Batman, as one does not appear on the front cover, but no-one seems to mind ignoring the rules in that case.

funny, my copy of batman says batman on the front cover



-Agrare

Quoting Agrare:

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...
I think the important issue here is that for a given show the opening is the same for each episode and is just reused. Generally if its changed its done between seasons, sometimes its done part way through a reason, but in any case its not re-shot for each episode. Credits on the other hand, because cast\crew change, you have guest stars in episodes appear to be re-done for each episode. It also appears that they are (at least in this case) accurate to remove cast members that may be regulars but don't appear in that particular episode. Since the opening is reused however those regulars may still be listed there. So maybe for TV series the opening should be ignored when dealing with cast....

This is not entirely true... as I proved way back when the discussion was about main cast before the dividers or within each divider... there is shows that do have different opening credits depending which main stars are in that episode. The one I used at the time would be the series Charmed (which I happen to be having a marathon of as we speak)... there they have 4 versions of the opening credits... each episode using a version of the credits that shows who is actually in that episode. It might not be very common but it is so on several I have seen since I first started doing the profiles for TV Series.

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Some serious rewording of this rule is in order I thinkI suggest opening credits just need to be not allowed for cast at all unless there are no actors listed in the end credits.

There are many series out now that has no opening credits at all... I am thinking of shows such as Lost and Supernatural.