Quoting northbloke:

Quote:
While waiting for Skip to provide sources explaining this "standard" that pan and scan always results in a 4:3 image, I thought I'd supply another source that supports the alternate view.

From DVD Demystified, third edition, written by Jim Taylor, Mark R. Johnson and Charles G. Crawford
Chapter 3, page 42

Quote:
The standard pan and scan technique can be used with a 16:9 window (as opposed to a 4:3 window) when transferring from film to DVD. For 1.85 movies, the result is essentially the same as cropping and is hardly worth the extra work, For wider movies, pan and scan is more useful, but the original aspect ratio is lost, which goes against the spirit of the widescreen format. When going to the trouble of supporting DVD's widescreen format, it seems silly to pan and scan inside it, but if the option is there, someone is bound to use it.

It's available via Google Books if anyone wants to read it for themselves.

Your turn Skip...

Thanks for finding that! 

Quoting Dan W:

Quote:
Perhaps "crop & scan" is an even better choice since that is what is actually being done here.

I like the "crop & scan" phrase.  I think that describes it well. I do think we need something because I would very much like to know if what I'm getting on BD is not OAR.

Quoting stevegblair:

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So, unless there is a change to the rules, Pan and Scan should not be used for any widescreen titles.

Wrong. Pan & Scan means Pan & Scan. 2.35 cropped to 1.78 then employing Pan & Scan to keep action framed = Pan & Scan, period. There is no rational way to explain this otherwise.

Quoting Grendell:

Quote:
Quoting stevegblair:

Quote:
So, unless there is a change to the rules, Pan and Scan should not be used for any widescreen titles.

Wrong. Pan & Scan means Pan & Scan. 2.35 cropped to 1.78 then employing Pan & Scan to keep action framed = Pan & Scan, period. There is no rational way to explain this otherwise.

Sorry, your wrong is WRONG. The rules are EXTREMELY clear on this....

Quoting Grendell:

Quote:
Wrong. Pan & Scan means Pan & Scan. 2.35 cropped to 1.78 then employing Pan & Scan to keep action framed = Pan & Scan, period. There is no rational way to explain this otherwise.

Yeah, I'm afraid Steve and Hydrox are right. The rules specifically state that the pan and scan tickbox is only to be used for 4x3 titles, regardless of what happens in real life.
It's a shame, but would require a rule update and a program update to fix.

And Skip, did my book quote really deserve a red arrow? I'd be interested to know which forum rule it breached...

I brought up an OAR checkbox a while back. Discussion here.

-Agrare

Been COLLECTING  some of the episodes of the Honeymooners ( original 39) .,, But There are another set of numerous older episodes that were recorded right off the  front of a television monitor (Dumont TV). 
In the CBS studios at the time when  Videotape was first introduced, These images are cropped even further than 1:33 as the image is or appears to be zoomed in on so the edges of the monitor aren't recorded.  (1:20.1)  ??

So what OAR would be used here?? as it isn't P&S,,  just Zoomed.

Which now brings up a new dilemma.., Zoom is the opposite of Pan and Scan, There should be a drop down box for that,,but what would be the aspect ratio.?, or the new OAR?

Oleops:

The specifics on this can be found in any number of places on the web, WidescreenAdvocate to name one. Remember that Widescreen has not been around forever,  I said this is something that is decades old. If  Iwent way back, to my childhood, there were some movies that when they were brought to TV the opening and closing credits were squeezed resulting in some horrible looking film but you could read the credits, then they would go to the Pan & Scan. 4X3 was TV for nearly 50 years, the 16X9 screens are relatively new on the scene. Now with advent of BIG Screen television back in the late 70s and Laserdisc many people wanted the theatrical release, so they began releasing "letterboxed" images on Laserdisc, for some reason this did not carry to videotape until almost the end of the format. Anamorphic Widescreen did not rear it's ugly head until the advent of DVD, and the Studios were very slow in moving to the concept of using, most Studios continued releasing letterboxed titles, it took fan outcry and about 3 years to make Anamorphic the Widescreen format of choice for DVD, but even today you will find the occasional oddball release which is done in letterbox.

As one can see from the attempts to discuss this issue here a definition is hard to produce. The industry DOES need to update it, but far be it from me to even make the attempt, i will wait for them to catch up. This does not pose a major issue as there are very few films involved at this point. I have been pushing the industry for many years now to update this definition and so far they have not, one or two guys doing so can only accomplish so much, it takes a much larger response to do so, one day it will happen. But in the meantime we have the standard definitions which were created in the late 60s. If I had to guess, the delay probably revolves around how to create a new definition standard which will apply to both 4x3 and 16x9 screens, believe or not we will have 4x3 screens in circulation for years to come.

Skip

Thank goodness for Woody Allen who absolutely Insisted that Manhatten (1979) ( one of the Very first titles out side of Criterion/Voyager) be released in Letterbox., and the Laser Disc of that title was an amazing 2.6:1 aspect ratio., and yet almost every other Woody Allen film of his to date has been a paltry 1.85:1 .