Quoting Astrakan:

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In terms of film making, ADR talents are never considered crew. There's no debating that fact. In terms of DVD Profiler? Well, that's another kettle of fish altogether.

The unions ADR talent qualify for are actor specific ones, such ACTRA, as opposed to crew focused ones like IATSE or NABET.

But, are they considered cast? That's when it gets a little trickier.

As we've seen, they're generally credited separately from the regular cast, but that has more to do with the fact that their work is done in post rather than production, and less to do with whether they're cast or crew.

If I were forced to give them a designation I'd call them performers rather than cast or crew. When you're having budget discussions and try to determine how much to set aside for ADR performers, their subcategory is indeed called that: ADR performers.

Rather than debating whether ADR performers are Cast or Crew, I think a more important question is:

Should we track ADR performers?

If the answer to that question is yes, I think it much more logical to track them in the cast category rather than crew. Perhaps with a new checkbox for ADR instead of just using the Voice checkbox.

KM

Agreed on all counts. As for it being logical to track them in cast rather than crew: indeed. Not just because filmmakers, unions and the actors themselves all consider them to be cast, but simply because that's where it serves the purpose where I want to track them for: to be able to link with their other acting credits - which I've often found to be both "regular" roles as other voice only ones.

Quoting Astrakan:

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(***)
The reason they're listed deep in the crew section has nothing to do with them being crew or cast, but to do with when they did their work, which was in post.
(***)

Then why are dancers, who appear on screen, often listed deep in the crew section?  That isn't a 'smart @ss' question, I really am interested in an answer. 

For me, standard credits have a cast section and a crew section.  If they are credited in the crew section, with a few exceptions, they are crew.  Please don't get me wrong, I do consider them performers, just performers doing a crew job.  I mean, a foley artist is a performer as well, but I don't want to credit them with the rest of the cast.

Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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I personally think the best way to handle it is the same way we do stunt people.... if it is listed in with the crew... it is considered crew. If it is within the cast list then (and only then) it should be considered cast.

Completely agree with Pete on this, they are crew unless listed within a cast list

I'm still on the fence about this.

It's very likely that these ADR people provided back-ground voices for scenes such as on a busy street or at a party. Kind of like adding atmosphere to a scene to make it more real. Perhaps that's why they are listed outside of the cast, because just like sound effects people they provide "sound" to make a certain scene more realistic.

But then on the other side, some of these are 'actors' who once in a while provide voices for movies. So I suppose one could argue that by providing the 'voice' they "acted" in a movie too.

I suppose it's an interesting piece of trivia to some and to others it's worthless.

Most ADR is designed for things like background conversations, or the sound of a crowd: in other words, things that are not meant to be noticed on an individual level.  I am on the "not part of the cast" side of the fence.

Quoting northbloke:

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I'm guessing the average user simply doesn't care about such detailed information and is only interested in the main cast. Those users that do want such detail are able to add them locally.

That may wel be true: heck, a recent poll showed that a staggeringly high number of the users don't care about the entire crew section. That doesn't mean we eliminate it from the program, though. There too, those that don't "care about such detailed information" are under no obligation to add it or even to deal with it at all, and they can choose to ignore it in their local database, or even remove it with just a few clicks. Those that do care about the information, on the other hand, have quite a lot to gain by being able to share this part of the cast through the contribution system.

I perfectly understand why some of you don't deem these people important enough to track. But others do. What I don't understand is why people would actually fight against it. Not having a need for it yourself is one thing, but denying others the possibility to benefit from eachother's input by it being a part of the master database is quite something else. 

post editted for personal content

My point was: why would you fight against inclusion of a certain piece of data? I, for instance, am not interested in make-up crew at all. Yet: did I fight against it's inclusion? No, I did not. I'm happy for those that ARE interested in it that they got what they wanted. I'm under no obligation to add make-up crew if I don't want to, so I really don't have a problem there. Winners all around. Frankly it's a little amazing to see that so many users have no intention to extend the same courtesy to others. 

My point was: why would you fight against inclusion of a certain piece of data? I, for instance, am not interested in make-up crew at all. Yet: did I fight against it's inclusion? No, I did not. I'm happy for those that wanted it that they got what they wanted. I'm under no obligation to add make-up crew if I don't want to. I don't have a problem there. Frankly it's a little amazing to see that so many users have no intention to extend the same courtesy to others.

Because it's against the Rules, Tim, it's that simple. They are also not cast members in 99% of the instances, but they are a member of the Crew, and if Ken wishes to include that section in a future release, that is fine with me.

I did not attempt to discredit you, you did that yourself. There are numerous athers who feel the same way.

At least when I submit data it does follow the rules ALWAYS. There are some users and i will not name anyone in particular, Tim, that have made me decide to keep my data to myself even though it does conform to the Rules. Now I don't consider that to be good for the community as a whole, but frankly I am weary of the pettiness which continues to infect these forums and the double standard which continues to be applied as Unicus has noted elsewhere. Now to bed, I have no desire to disrupt this any further, simply follow the rules and we will worry about what comes when it comes, and i hope for the good of the community and EVERY user that you will sit down and reconsider your position on documentation, I don't trust your work because you are Tim, I don't trust it because you refuse to back up your work with anything other than vague comments which amount to "because I said so".The user name is really completely meaningless to me, other than acting as a red flag, that tells me i need to look at this more closely.

I even granted you a Yes vote on some of your undocumented work, because in that particular instance i did not feel it was necessary. But that is not going to be true most of the time, but when I can I will.  I am not the one making personally attacking and insulting remarks in your updated notes, there's that double standard again. Ken did NOT say that you NWEVER had to provide documentation, though if that were true I would NEVER Contribute ever again because I am not aboutbuilding a new IMDb, where users rtun amuck and the data is so utterly incorrect that it cannot be trusted for anything because their users provide no visible documentation...we do and that is a good thing. As long as you insist on "it is because I say it is", then I will be forced to dispute such comments, I accept no one's word just on their say so, I want some documentation to back up the claim. I may not be the stickler on this that some users are, such as listing the Actual runtime, though such notes are appreciated by me when I see them. But when I say i have Iused PowerDVD and DVD Decrypter to check the runtime you can put that in the bank.

I also don't do this out of any dislike for you, Tim, I don't have the time or the energy that it takes to dislike someone. All I want is to see better notes from you and actually following the Rules, then I will be a very happy camper.

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