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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Vote on Hong Kong/Asian movie actor 'community' name! |
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| Author |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
It's not quite that simple. It is, really. Quote:
we don't do Community names Actually, we do. Not so much "community names", indeed, but "common names". I agree with you that we don't get to pick and choose what we use as the "common name" - per Ken's instruction we're simply to use the most-credited form, although he recently started making exceptions for dealing with the lack or presence of a comma in suffixed names and the lack or presence of a space between initials. For anything else, as of yet, we're still after the most-credited form. That doesn't mean we can't ask for more standards to be applied - as the examples mentioned above have shown, we desperately NEED some standards to reach some kind of accuracy: we won't get there by ourselves, as evidenced by vast numbers of separate, non-linking entries for the likes of Robert Downey, Jr. vs. Robert Downey Jr., and J.K. Simmons vs. J. K. Simmons. Thanks to these new standards, these pointless double entries for the same people are now finally getting cleared up. With that in mind, asking for a standard, or at least some guidance, on how to deal with Chinese names doesn't seem like such a bad idea. No matter how you feel about it yourself, you can't deny that this is an absolute mess - and that is exactly why the subject keeps resurfacing all the time. Different people handle this in different ways - always a bad idea - and unlike what you seem to think, the rules don't declare any of those methods more "correct" than the other. The fact is that the field names in DVD Profiler are called "First Name", "Middle Name" and "Last Name". They're not called "First Word", "Second Word" and "Last Word". As long as the field names are labelled as such, and there's no further guidance from Ken, you can't say people can't enter someone's first name in the "First Name" field, someone's middle name in the "Middle Name" field, and someone's last name in the "Last Name" field. I'm sorry, but you can't. And no matter what you personally think about that, people WILL continue to do just that, and the rules don't prohibit it at all. As always: denying the problem won't make it go away - as the fact that we're having this discussion for the umpteenth time clearly illustrates. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
We are at the Online level attempting to represent the On Screen credits, what you do locally is your business and welcome to it. But you are forever working against the rules and Profiler's objective to be consistent against the credits.
Skip I'm not working against the rules. The rules tell us to use the fine feature called credited as field to represent the on screen credit if the name doesn't match the credit. The last name in the credit is Chow so we have to use this. The order of the profiler fields does not match the order of the names in the credit. Therefore we have to use the credited as field as demanded by the rules. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
We are at the Online level attempting to represent the On Screen credits, what you do locally is your business and welcome to it. But you are forever working against the rules and Profiler's objective to be consistent against the credits.
Skip
I'm not working against the rules. The rules tell us to use the fine feature called credited as field to represent the on screen credit if the name doesn't match the credit.
The last name in the credit is Chow so we have to use this. The order of the profiler fields does not match the order of the names in the credit. Therefore we have to use the credited as field as demanded by the rules. Before you answer this, Skip, think long and hard. Maybe even re-read the rules. Even without expressing a preference for either of your methods, I can't stress enough that the rules don't declare any of them more "correct" than the other. You can all keep stating your preference at each other until you're both blue in the face, then give up, and then start all over again next week. The fact of the matter is that Ken finally needs to step in and offer some guidance on the subject. I don't envy that task, but it HAS to happen someday. Until that day, different camps will keep handling this using different methods. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree that this is something that just can not be settled without a decision from Ken... in the very least a comment telling us what to do... though I would prefer a clarification in the rules.
I still personally think a 1 name field combined with exactly as you see in the credits is the way to go. I personally am fine with losing the ability to have names listed as Last, First Middle. | | | | Pete |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
I still personally think a 1 name field combined with exactly as you see in the credits is the way to go. I personally am fine with losing the ability to have names listed as Last, First Middle. Agreed! |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
I'm not applying a western standard to the field. I'm advocating putting Chinese family names and western surnames in the same field and then using Credited As to display the name in the order it is written.
That was the biggest reason for me supporting the idea of last name = family name when inputting cast and crew. It's not so much about cultural preferences, it's about consistent data: all the family names are in the same field. And the way the cast database is presented (sorted by last name) in the program supports that interpretation.
However, the biggest problem with that form of data entry is that "credited as" would have to be used for almost every single Asian credit, and the CLT results would be useless.
To be honest I think the best way to handle this would be some form of program change: single name field would be good, a checkbox indicating Asian name order would work too, I'm sure there are other solutions...
PS the support ticket I opened in November about this very problem is still "In Queue", I get the feeling that maybe Ken is avoiding the issue...  I vote for a check box indicating Asian name order. I think it's way easier to implement than changing the name filed structure, and we wouldn't lose the ability to sort by Last name, as would happen with a single field. | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm not even sure that a single filed would really solve our problem, because there would always be users entering the reversed name!  | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | It's not an even a real issue, it's been a long time since I saw someone trying to use Rho's interpretation. It's just another one of those things that somebody wants to argue about every few months. Skip  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,436 |
| | Posted: | | | | Please ignore this post at will.
<off-topic rant>
Wow, things sure haven't changed. With Skip still not allowing discussion or ast least trying to understand the need for it I sure am glad I stopped caring about this issue...
</off-topic rant>
If you read this far, I apologize for this useless waste of forum space. | | | Achim [諾亞信； Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
It's not an even a real issue, it's been a long time since I saw someone trying to use Rho's interpretation.
It's just another one of those things that somebody wants to argue about every few months.
Skip It is an issue, in that there are users entering the same credits in different ways, and all they think to be doing it per the rules (or, at least, not against them). So, while I agree with you, and others, that Chinese names are to be entered in the same order as written, for the reasons I gave in other posts, I also see there is an issue that needs to be taken care of. A clear statement by Ken would rule out different interpretations and reduce data splintering. And a "Chinese order" check box in the program might even make everybody happy. | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | personally I would prefer the single name field along with the rule as it is (exactly as on screen) over a "Chinese Order" checkbox... as you will still have to know when to use that checkbox as it has already been said that some of the actors use a western standard for their names. But as I said... that is just my  | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
This is the same flaw we have with Western credits for example Mrs. Bonham Carter. How can we expect the 'regular' users to know that Bonham is part of the last name and not her middle name? You already know the answer: documentation. It is not the same flaw. Whether we parse it 'Helena/Bonham/Carter', 'Helena/ /Bonham Carter', 'Helena Bonham/ /Carter' or 'Helena Bonham Carter/ / ' the name will alwasy display as 'Helena Bonham Carter' and will always show up in the CLT. Using your method for Asian names, 'Chow/ /Yun-Fat' and 'Yun-Fat/ /Chow' will NOT display the same and will NOT show up, together, in the CLT. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Yes, this is a credit variant of the same names. Or in other words a variant of the how the names of a person are ordered in the credit. A perfect candidat for the credited as field. Sorry, but this is logic created to support your opinion. His name is 'Chow Yun-Fat'. The credit reads 'Chow Yun-Fat'. There is no name variant here. Now, a credit of 'Chow Yun Fat' would be a name variant. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Whether we parse it 'Helena/Bonham/Carter', 'Helena/ /Bonham Carter', 'Helena Bonham/ /Carter' or 'Helena Bonham Carter/ / ' the name will alwasy display as 'Helena Bonham Carter' and will always show up in the CLT.
Using your method for Asian names, 'Chow/ /Yun-Fat' and 'Yun-Fat/ /Chow' will NOT display the same and will NOT show up, together, in the CLT. It's not about how it shows up in the CLT, it's about LINKING. The CLT is a rather simplistic tool - nothing else. The key issue here, the reason why this subject keeps coming up, is not because people are interested in building towards great CLT results, but because people want to link the credits of a particular person together. Having those different methods of entry for Helena Bonham Carter all show up in the CLT results does nobody any good when they don't link together, obviously. The same goes for the different methods of entry for Chow Yun-Fat (or Yun-Fat Chow). |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 4,684 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
personally I would prefer the single name field along with the rule as it is (exactly as on screen) over a "Chinese Order" checkbox... as you will still have to know when to use that checkbox as it has already been said that some of the actors use a western standard for their names.
But as I said... that is just my I'll chip in another two cents in the collection for a single name field  | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
personally I would prefer the single name field along with the rule as it is (exactly as on screen) over a "Chinese Order" checkbox... as you will still have to know when to use that checkbox as it has already been said that some of the actors use a western standard for their names.
But as I said... that is just my
I'll chip in another two cents in the collection for a single name field See there! Now Ken... can you really refuse 4¢?  | | | | Pete |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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