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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Is common sense a valid source? |
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| Author |
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| Registered: February 23, 2009 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | A bit of a weird question, but I was wondering if common sense can be used as a valid source for a submission to the database. I'll explain myself: I noticed that the actor Nakamura Shidou is in the database twice, once with Nakamura in the family name field (correct version) and once with Nakamura in the first name field (wrong, as Nakamura only exists as a family name in Japan). Such misunderstandings probably occur because unlike western credits, Japanese credits tend to put the family name first and not the first name. Anyway, I noticed this 'wrong' version of his name was used in the profile of the movie Jet Li's Fearless and made a submission to correct this: Quote:
[i]Corrected name for actor Nakamura Shidou:
Shidou = first name
Nakamura = last name
Both were reversed (Nakamura was put in the first name field, Shidou in last name field)
Source : Common sense really. Nakamura (??) can only be used as a last name, not a first name. As such, it only makes sense to input Nakamura in the 'last name' field.
Moreover, the same name was already in the database as 'Shidou Nakamura', which can cause confusion for future movie profiles where he is cast in.
The only logical and correct way to input his name is with Shidou in the first name field and Nakamura in the family name field.
For further info on this actor and also as source info, I redirect everyone to his personal site:
???? (Nakamura Shidou)
http://www.shidou.jp/[/i] The submission got turned down because I didn not give a vailid source. So I wonder, do we really need to provide a source when mere common sense would suffice? Let's suppose you see the Japanese credits of a movie with Tom Cruise, and he is credited as Cruise Tom. Would anyone here really input him as follows: First Name: Cruise Last Name: Tom Seriously? I understand the importance of sticking to the credits but in such cases, I would think common sense would prevail, no? Any thoughts on the matter as well as suggestions how I can resubmit my contribution? If it keeps getting declined, I'll just have to adapt it in my personal database and lock the cast section so it doesn't get overwritten with updates. | | | Blu-ray collection
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|  | W0m6at | | You're in for it now Tony |
| Registered: April 17, 2007 |  Posts: 1,091 |
| | Posted: | | | | Unfortunately Taro, the "first"/"last" name arguments have never been resolved. Some argue that they're just that (first = first onscreen), although parsing arguments are moot if that's the case, whilst others argue they're synonymous with given and surname respectively. Unless/Until we get official input, this will continue to be an unresolved issue, and inconsistent at the submissions end of things. Much like the romanisation issue, Asian cast fall victim the most often, it has been a cause of contention for some time, and still has not been officially addressed.
There is also an irony lost to many. Most of the credits for Asian movies will be in the local language rather than the romanised alphabet, so the "as credited" is gleaned from elsewhere anyway. | | | | Adelaide Movie Buffs (info on special screenings, contests, bargains, etc. relevant to Adelaideans... and contests/bargains for other Aussies too!) |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
...but I was wondering if common sense can be used as a valid source ... It should always be the case, and would avoid many problems. But, and I do not really find this funny, most vocal users often agree here on just nonsenses. | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Contrary to what yves said, common sense is not shared nor is it common. It is different for each and every person and is therefore NOT a valid source. For example, i can tell you from experience surfgeur's idea of common sense ios very different from my own, that is not to say that he is wrong, he is different. The difference between myself amnd him is that I recognize that difference and have no desire to impose my my common sense on him, which is why we have RULES. Common sense is a personal thing to everybody and as such belongs i one place, your LOCAL database.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Common sense is a personal thing to everybody ... How many teachers in the world ask their pupils to reproduce all grammatical mistakes they find ? Common sense asks to correct obvious errors. Rules ask the contrary... | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | That is because you think too narrowly and do not understand the online, the local and DATA, you do not create the DATA the DVD distributor does, or the filmmakers do, but not you,. You can create an interpretation of the data but that is not the data. If you want to correct what YOU view as a typo, you do so locally, I might even agree with you and change mine locally as well, but that is not what the DATA would indicate. As I suggested surfeur, you really should develo; your own program, and develop Rules that make YOU happy and that way you won;'t have to worry about your inability to comprehend such things, you can tell people to do it YOUR way.
The Online is based upon real DATA, not interpreted data, interpreted data becomes a matter for your local. I have tried repeatedly to explain this to you, but you refuse to comprehend it, your way is one step away from total interpretation, you don't like the Overview on the back, so you want to write your own, the Online used to work that way and was a total wreck and users were constantly submitting updates to get their interpreted data into the online, you may have enjoyed that but many of us did not.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | W0m6at makes a very interesting argument here, in that Invelos really needs to clearly state if first & last realy mean first and last name, or just what is written first and what is written last on-screen.
Because if it's the latter and we are asked to stick idiomatically to credits (which I hope won't be the case), then just wait until I start submitting all my Japanese DVD's. There will be an affluence of Cruise Tom's, Meyers Mike's and Connery Sean's. Virtually every major actor will be in the database twice (once with the first name first, once with the family name first) and if the latter option is chosen, my submission will be correct and in line with the rules, as idiotic as it may sound.
I think it's an important issue that needs adressing. Either we follow credits like slaves, with our brains turned off, or we use credits as the basic data but input said data using some common sense (like Cruise is the family name and Tom is the first name). | | | Blu-ray collection
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| | Registered: December 13, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Contrary to what yves said, common sense is not shared nor is it common. It is different for each and every person and is therefore NOT a valid source. I agree with you there. If common sense was indeed common, we wouldn't have 5% of the discussions we do now. We'd all draw the same conclusion all the time wouldn't we? |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Mallrat: Quote:
If common sense was indeed common, we wouldn't have 5% of the discussions we do now. Or perhaps some people just turn off their common sense, just not to admit that our sacrosanct rules are poorly designed ? | | | | Images from movies |
| | W0m6at | | You're in for it now Tony |
| Registered: April 17, 2007 | | Posts: 1,091 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
Because if it's the latter and we are asked to stick idiomatically to credits (which I hope won't be the case), then just wait until I start submitting all my Japanese DVD's. There will be an affluence of Cruise Tom's, Meyers Mike's and Connery Sean's. Virtually every major actor will be in the database twice (once with the first name first, once with the family name first) and if the latter option is chosen, my submission will be correct and in line with the rules, as idiotic as it may sound. I'm going to go out on a limb here, before someone flies off the handle, but Taro is using these to demonstrate a point using widely recognised, English language names. | | | | Adelaide Movie Buffs (info on special screenings, contests, bargains, etc. relevant to Adelaideans... and contests/bargains for other Aussies too!) | | | | Last edited: by W0m6at |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree with Skip and Mallrat here... I can tell you by experience that common sense is not the same for everyone. It all has to do with how you were raised and the area you are from.
For example to me common sense tells me that when you have a collection catalog program such as this... you take all info from the exact source material... whether it is the cast and crew list.. no matter the spelling, overview exactly as on case... no matter the spelling errors. And so on. But yet we see almost every day people seeing that all different. That is my (and some others) common sense... but definitely not everyone's. | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting W0m6at: Quote:
Quoting Taro:
Quote:
Because if it's the latter and we are asked to stick idiomatically to credits (which I hope won't be the case), then just wait until I start submitting all my Japanese DVD's. There will be an affluence of Cruise Tom's, Meyers Mike's and Connery Sean's. Virtually every major actor will be in the database twice (once with the first name first, once with the family name first) and if the latter option is chosen, my submission will be correct and in line with the rules, as idiotic as it may sound. I'm going to go out on a limb here, before someone flies off the handle, but Taro is using these to demonstrate a point using widely recognised, English language names. Yes thank you. That was indeed just an example to showcase in what kind of situation we might end up if we stick to a 'exactly as is credited' mantra. If that is the choice the majority wants to make, I'll adhere to it of course. I just want everyone to realize in what kind of situation we will end up then: a database with every common actor inputted twice. | | | Blu-ray collection
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| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
For example to me common sense tells me that when you have a collection catalog program such as this... you take all info from the exact source material... whether it is the cast and crew list.. no matter the spelling, overview exactly as on case... no matter the spelling errors. And so on. That has nothing to do with common sense. These are preferences about a program that not one person upon 100 in the world even knows the name. Common sense is about general things that everybody does every day : say children not to touch the hot oven, name people by their name, count in decimal system and not binary system, be careful when crossing a road, avoid spelling mistakes, install the TV so that the image is not up down, cut meat with knife and not with fork... could give a long list... When rules are against this common sense, ordinary contributors may have a tendancy not to follow them... | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
|  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
I just want everyone to realize in what kind of situation we will end up then: a database with every common actor inputted twice. In theory (!!) that's not entirely true. The hypothetical "Cruise Tom" example would be entered using the credited as feature, as "Tom Cruise [Cruise Tom]", meaning there'd still be just one entry for him in the database. The problem still desperately needs to be addressed, of course. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 485 |
| | Posted: | | | | Wow, One decent question starting the thread and already borderline inflammatory posts. Shall we not get sidetracked by who has the better understanding of "common sense", please  ? W0m6at is right that your question basically returns a question dealt with in many threads on Invelos and Intervocative fora. It is the old question whether 'last' is meant as pure positional (Skip a.o. has always been a very vocal voice for this POV is and of course entitled to his view), or as synonymous to family name (surname), as in common English (throughout the years I've seen many more supporters of that view). Of course, the positional view requires just copying and also makes the parsing superfluous IMHO. The use in common language' view requires introducing facts outside the DVD itself. Which goes to say that both views have their pros and cons. Each could be used for cross-linking, but both require additional rules to counteract spelling errors, name changes (marriage!), and so on. The many threads on asian names, name conventions in countries al have battle scars here. Everyone chooses sides but nobody wants to cave in.  I agree with W0m6at that it is high time Invelos (Ken) declared his colours on this particular issue. For your name issue I'd use myself a Tom//Cruise credited as "Cruise Tom" solution, with inclusion of the family name remark since Nakamura is not as well known  . Though the "credited as" feature seems to be under attack by some, looking at other threads. Edit: T!M beat me to it on this one... | | | Eric
If it is important, say it. Otherwise, let silence speak. | | | | Last edited: by eommen |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 6,745 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting eommen: Quote:
Shall we not get sidetracked by who has the better understanding of "common sense", please ? As long as we agree that it is me, I have no problem. | | | Karsten
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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